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Savisaar: Eesti Energia’s oil business is waste of taxpayer money

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Savisaar makes the right assessment, but, as a typical leftiest, he draws at no surprize the wrong conclusions. It is the bad government policies of subsidies and like that made the four oilshale businessmen more rich than market forces would probably allow.

There is no market price for shale oil as it is not subject to stock exchange trading, but buyers are not stupid and know the price they can get the goods for and the margin for businessmen left with energy supply at this quantities is usually not more than a few euros per ton, but if a subsidiary of a government owned company does the mining at large, things get out of touch usually. Reply to the comment

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~knut albers [18.10.2012, 13:12]

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Savisaar is a waste. Reply to the comment

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~dedmocratic [18.10.2012, 15:13]

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~csdfpsds [18.10.2012, 15:38]

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Look at Statoil ( not the gas station chain) - this can be handled by a wholly or partially state owned company.
Savisaar sees that the estonian state must do something radical now that the nuclear plant in Lithuania will not become a reality Reply to the comment

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~Norwegian [18.10.2012, 15:50]

There's a stock market price for oil and hence less room for cheating.

~knut albers [18.10.2012, 19:16]

In the East, cheating is away of life.

~numberSeven [18.10.2012, 21:25]

Shale oil was developed by the Soviets anyway, because Leningrad region before the construction of nuclear power was energy poor.

If the Baltic states had not been run by the Soviet union, there would be few houses, no oil shale and no sewers, same for Lithuania with nuclear power.

Now if you read the newspapers, no-one wants anything any more, and no-one wants to pay either.
Always easy to say NO isn't it.

Not so easy to create something, construct something and find the money to pay for it all yourself, instead of bleating to the EU for more subsidies, when you can't even get your own act together.

~Dependency is the Estonian way of life [19.10.2012, 10:08]

bad luck, Eesti=No. Shale oil industry in Estonia already exist during the czarist empire (1916) and was further developed after the independence war. The soviets fastend the development of that industry.

~Propaganda guy? [19.10.2012, 10:58]

Shale oil is starting to get huge. Statoil, BP and others are involved
"Shale oil and gas will help make western hemisphere self-sufficient"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/jan/18/shale-oil-gas-us-energy-self-sufficient

~Norwegian [19.10.2012, 15:57]

Norwegian, please read the amendment:

"This article was amended on 20 January 2012. The original reported BP as predicting that growth in shale oil and gas supplies will make the US virtually self-suffient in energy by 2030. BP predicted that a range of fuels, (including shale oil and gas) would see the western hemisphere almost self-sufficient in energy by 2030."

~knut albers [22.10.2012, 13:45]

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esti=NO doesnt do facts nor reads very much.Othgerwise he would know about the economic development of Estonia during the first independence Reply to the comment

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~read more [19.10.2012, 13:25]

"Shale oil was developed by the Soviets anyway"...

You are of course aware that shale oil exists on BOTH sides of the border, but of course you would always want to claim Estonia was so wealthy when they were "independent"...so here you are.

In fact 1980 was (?) during the Soviet period, at the same time as construction of a lot of housing in Estonia was it not?

"Estonian oil shale production peaked in 1980 at 31.35 million tonnes"

"Reval" never was independent.

The wealth was developed by the Germans and the Jewish, both of which the ethnic Estonians succeeded in destroying.

In fact Estonia was the ONLY country in Europe declared as JUDENFREI,as they were the most successful in having them deported & exterminated.

~can you read?? little known facts. [19.10.2012, 23:34]

"In fact Estonia was the ONLY country in Europe declared as JUDENFREI". As you emphasise the "ONLY country" and declare yourself as educated: 17.October 1941: Luxembourg was declared "judenfrei" in the German press, too. Also, Serbia was declared "judenfrei" through the SD. But may be I am so stupid and do not remember the time Estonia-Luxembourg-Serbia were one country.
But it is astonishing that you connect Shale-oil industry with the holocaust. And you only refer to the time after 1944. Intersting, because you say, you know the facts. Does not matter, that the German occupation was also about the oil-shale region in Ida-Virumaa, eh?. But I suppose, the soviets build up the industry in less than a year, right?. May be you should start reading as you propose in your nick-name...

~Propaganda guy? [20.10.2012, 10:39]

As usual our ministry of propaganda guy is working overtime.

He can't bear anyone to point out, Oil shale also exists across the border in Russia.
He also can't bear to see, Estonians had no part in developing the industry.

The scientists and companies who developed it were either Russian, German or Swedish, with one of the companies being British.

So the haphazard connection between foreign nationals who subsidised and constructed an entire industry has obvious parallels today, where Estonians don't lift a finger to get off dependency on the EU.

As for the holocaust, there was a connection.

The Estonians joined the wrong side and ACTIVELY collaborated with the Nazis particularly in Ida-Viru where the oil shale industry is situated.

Indeed the participation was so good, they oversaw and managed the concentration camps in that region.

As usual the propaganda guy is so warped, he fails to see that in Luxembourg the local population REFUSED to be involved in this.

There were no concentration camps there either, & as a silent majority they refused to be conscripted, unlike Alsace where at Struthof, the Germans locked up and slowly tortured and killed resistance figures.

Again in Alsace, local people REFUSED to be involved in killing their own people or be conscripted.

For Estonia unfortunately it was just "business as usual", and even today they know no shame or embarrassment about it.

~Smug Estonians [20.10.2012, 10:54]

First, you idiot it is a ? and not a ! in my nickname! It is you who assumes that everybody not following blind your strange/weird argumentation must be Estonian and working for something like a "Propaganda ministry".

Second, I was refering to your own words and the content was historically wrong. There is a difference between declaration of being "judenfrei" and taking part or not taking part. The declaration was always done by the Germans. How it was achieved does not matter. And for this reason your "historical fact" that Estonia was the "ONLY country" is wrong. Believe it or not.

But I am writing to a learner, as it seems.

~Propaganda guy? [20.10.2012, 11:26]

"How it was achieved does not matter"...

Indeed this is the point.
For you it does not matter.

France apologised very publicly under Chirac.

Estonia much less than even make a half hearted mea culpa, is still being defended by people like yourself, and of course then comes out with the usual well known "propaganda technique"....

You don't know history, "speaking to learner".

Fact is Estonia has NEVER been independent.
Never will be in your lifetime.

The culture of dependency on other foreign nationals is far too deeply engrained, then constantly harping back to some mythical "independent wealthy Estonia back in the mists of time" NOT!

Look at the undersea power cable being made today or the motorway to Rakvere?

Who pays for that?

~the truth hurts [20.10.2012, 12:04]

The usual shit of this Eesti=no guy. Claiming something. facts are different, so he changes the topic to something different. And even than, he do not understand what is standing behind his strange argumentation. But what to expect? Nothing, but it makes fun, to imagine this kid hacking in his keyboard and hoping that someone supports his racism, ignorance and hate. Or in the best case believing his theories and avoiding Estonia for this reason:))))) But I like the right of free speech, because so many idiots start spread their opinion (more since the nineties and the spread of the internet) and make me laugh. )))

~Propaganda guy? [20.10.2012, 12:27]

It is YOU constantly changing the subject.
Each & every time I point out that Estonia is NOT INDEPENDENT, you come up with yet another clueless arrogantism.

Estonia DID NOT develop its oil shale industry, foreigners did.
Whether you agree or not oil shale production peaked under the soviets, or retorts were developed in England is irrelevant.

Now you say Estonia is independent and can stand on its own feet.

Well, in that case let's take away the 10% of GDP directly injected by EU funding and see how "independent" you are....

Fact is, Estonia would immediately show up to be the utter basket case it is....imagine..

No sports halls, no new or even rebuilt motorways, (which fall to bits in 2yrs anyway) no new roads, no concert halls (which are empty anyhow), no new airport terminal and an entire construction industry which would fall apart employing 1000s of people.

What is "Independent" Estonia capable of doing?
Wrecking the rail oil trade, subsidising a loss making airline, refusing northstream, so the work goes to Finland, subcontracting NOT INVENTING for Skype, refusing to issue enough visas or improve the Narva crossing, so the tourism & business goes to Turkey, or Finland or Cyprus....

I could go on, but you are welcome to your "independent" Estonia.

Fact is, without being handed shed loads of EU money and even food aid, your country would be on the economic level of Africa.

~EU subsidy or nothing [21.10.2012, 09:16]

Oh Eesti=No..If you would be able to understand your own strange writing: I refered to your first "comment": Nothing about peak-points inside (even I agree to the peak)). I just said, that oil-shale industry already exist in the Czarist-empire (the owner of the Estonian company? I do not care as I am not so focussed on ethnics as you assume, but you said it were the Soviets (Soviet = ethnic? otherwise the reference to russian, british, non-Estonians in general doesnt make sense. Like most of your comments btw.)...you said something about the "judenfrei" I just correct you and so on...So, how can I change the topic???

And you are barely able to read. Most of your intellectual comment refers to Propaganda guy 2 and not ? but it looks the same right? Or you cannot imagine that there are more people on this board. But hey, may be we are only two here? Hm, lets say I am propaganda guy ? and 2. May be you and Knut Albers are the same person. Oooh, that sounds logical...constructivism at its best)))

~Propaganda guy? [21.10.2012, 09:44]

Usual stuff...Estonian propaganda...

ANSWER THE SUBJECT MATTER..

Does Estonia YES OR NO, depend entirely on EU money to get economic "growth".
ANSWER YES.

Is Estonia independent and able to pay its way as a result?
NO

Now answer the following instead of spewing ad hominem trash every 5 mins....

Is this a TRUE statement or do you imagine for 1 minute that Estonia can finance a single one of this list from its much vaunted market economy?

Answer NO.

"Estonia would immediately show up to be the utter basket case it is....imagine..

>>>> sports halls, new or even rebuilt motorways, (which fall to bits in 2yrs anyway) new roads, concert halls (which are empty anyhow), new airport terminal and an entire construction industry which would fall apart employing 1000s of people. >Wrecking the rail oil trade, subsidising a loss making airline, refusing northstream, so the work goes to Finland, subcontracting NOT INVENTING for Skype, refusing to issue enough visas or improve the Narva crossing, so the tourism & business goes to Turkey, or Finland or Cyprus.... "<<<

The rest of what you post is just crap, because you can't answer a straight question.

~you are just so BORING [21.10.2012, 11:37]

hahahaha...you dont get it. Just spoil your usually hate, prejudices on this comment. Yes, it is pretty easy to accept and agree that oil-shale is also available on the territory of the Russian Federation. But your comment that the Soviets built up the industry in Estonia is historically not correct. The same goes with your "judenfrei". How about accepting that you genius was wrong...??? Come on Knut, Eesti=No or what/ whoever you are...
Boring? I can say the same about you. You are writing always the same...

~Propaganda guy? [21.10.2012, 12:07]

esti=NO doesn't even know his own language or basic concepts learned from grade school.Go ask your old geography teacher what an independent country is. By your 'definition' the USA lost its independence to the Chinese debt holders.

~Propaganda guy 2 [21.10.2012, 16:23]

"By your 'definition' the USA lost its independence to the Chinese"

You're just ethnic nutters.
No other terms possible.

You want to compare a country that put men on the moon with Estonia??

America has a giant size internal market, and MAKES THINGS. It has its own money, so they can choose to print as much of it as they like.

What has Estonia?
It has no independent currency, so it can't control its own economy,- (has the highest inflation in the EU which it is powerless to do anything about).

It doesn't actually manufacture anything at all, and has had a trade deficit since figures were started, so if no-one comes up with HARD CASH, the Estonian economy would go under.
Not today, not tomorrow, but STRAIGHT AWAY BANKRUPT.

It believes it's independent, it likes to believe all kinds of fantasies about its importance and its past.

In reality they might as well have gone to the moon like the Americans, but we in the rest of Europe would have ensured they stayed there for good, because the moment we start to talk about anything Estonians are both blind, deaf and arrogant when it comes to spending other people's money.

That's what socialists LOVE TO DO.

They claim they are brilliant, but in reality they couldn't manage without constantly needing other people to lend them a dime, (then never pay it back).

It was the same way in soviet times, it's the same today, but of course the moment you remind them of this painful truth, they change the subject and say "look how it is in America".

Well guess what, that's why people to prefer to live and get rich in America, cos despite what Ansip rambles on about, the average salary in Estonia STILL won't top 1000 Euro a month in 2020.

So what have you been doing for the last 30 years we will say in 2020?

Taking other people's money and "being independent" you will tell me.

Let's see 2020 it's only 8 years away, and tha means the EU will have coughed up another 80% of the equivalent of 1 yrs GDP in that time.

I say, cough up, or we turn off the taps...!

~Estonians are crazy [21.10.2012, 17:11]

Yes. Megalomania is a very common trait for the failures of East Europe, including Eesti.

~öbläm long time ind [21.10.2012, 18:09]

You are back to the same hyperbole and absolute statements that have shot your arguments down in the past. You never seem to learn from your own mistakes.

You said Estonia 'doesn't actually manufacture anything at all'. Do you know that if I can show you that Estonia produces just a single thing, your argument goes up in smoke. That one thing (among many as you keep ignoring all the previous arguments on this subject and even ameeriklane has put you in your place on this issue) is boat building. There are more than several companies that BUILD custom boats here, as has been pointed out before. So there goes your absolute statement, genius.

Regarding currency, Germany and France, as well as a host of other countries don't have their own money either. So I guess they can't control their economies either, right? You really do need to stop skipping 7th class geography and pay attention in economics. There is more to controlling an economy than just printing money. One example is raising or lowering taxes.

You also said: 'constantly needing other people to lend them a dime, (then never pay it back)' - Links, please. Try to prove this load of BS.

Also, look up what makes an independent state. You don't have the slightest clue and are just managing to make people laugh at your idiocy here. Seriously, basic school pupils know more than you about this topic.

~Propaganda guy 2 [21.10.2012, 19:27]

Headquarters of the ECB are located in Germany. Only an estonian retard could think that "Germany does not control ECB, ECB controls Germany". Germany and France are THE LEADING ECONOMIC POWERS OF EUROPE, thus they have more say in the bank, as the chose of the banks location demonstrates.

~moser holly eesti window [21.10.2012, 22:47]

Does either Germany or France have their own currency? Can they print up as much money as they want? No? Then by your own statement they are not in charge of their own economies. Good job painting yourself into yet another corner, chump.

~Propaganda guy 2 [22.10.2012, 00:55]

"There are more than several companies that BUILD custom boats here, as has been pointed out before."

Oh big deal!
FYI even native indians are able to make boats.
I guess anyone who wanted to go fishing on lake Peipsi could make their own boat too.
Does that mean Estonia actually MANUFACTURERS anything?

The main marine industry employer in Estonia is FOREIGN OWNED.
Do they say, make OIL TANKERS, Aircraft carriers, submarines in Estonia?
Of course not!

Do they make CARS in Estonia?

Do they make planes in Estonia, even railway wagons or engines??
Of course they can't...never have, never will.

"There is more to controlling an economy than just printing money. One example is raising or lowering taxes"

Yes, but when you raise taxes you decrease consumption and increase inflation, which is precisely what has happened in the last 2 years.....

So again you control nothing at all...

When you run a structural trade deficit like Estonia has for 20 years, and doesn't actually produce or export anything of much value, then he difference has to be made up by EU subsidies, which Estonia is amazingly adept at finding and swallowing (mostly incredibl inefficently and corruptly).

QED

~Estonia the great bullshitter [22.10.2012, 01:14]

"Regarding currency, Germany and France, as well as a host of other countries don't have their own money either.
So I guess they can't control their economies either, right?"

YES completely correct for a change, which is exactly why without full fiscal and monetary union the EURO as a currency is doomed to failure.

The fiscal imbalances produced by having a patent inability to devalue when a country such as Germany is effectively subsidising the housing bubble of Spain, is one of the many complete contradictions of the idea of the Euro, and why the Euro destroys jobs throughout Europe.

So whichever way you look at it, you are completely correct.
Germany and France do NOT control their economies, because they are neither able to control or set their unit labour costs, nor prevent massive cyclical unemployment except by internal devaluation..

WHICH IS WHAT started the crisis in the first place!

I'll ignore your puerile remarks about school economics.
You literally don't have a clue!

~ONLY one thing you got right [22.10.2012, 01:25]

Do you realize how much of a buffoon you keep making out of yourself? So now building boats is not manufacturing anything? You get caught out in another lie and all you can think to do is to redfine words in the English language. As far as being foreign owned, you are full of it again. One such company belongs to a friend of mine and it is owned, operated and staffed only by Estonians. An article here on BBN last year about another boat building company also stated it was Estonian owned. But esti=NO doesnt do facts as usual. Then there is metal object and furniture manufacture here, plus other industries. It doesnt mattter that Estonia doesnt build cars or aircraft carriers. Your earlier point was that Estonia manufactures NOTHING. You are wrong again (Don't you get tired of that?)

Regarding Germany, France and any other country using the euro, guess what oh intellectually challenged one? Countries can control their economies through labor policy, pensions, the salaries and benefits of public workers and taxation (income, social and excise taxes as well as VAT).

~Propaganda guy 2 [22.10.2012, 09:25]

What boats have you tards build. Certainly none of the boats Tallink uses.

~darkie the eesclownian [22.10.2012, 14:59]

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esti=NO says Estonia has NEVER been independent. Thus, there was no first republic and no independent Estonia now. Go ahead, esti=NO. Prove it. It will be fun to see your bizarre logic and lack of education at work. Reply to the comment

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~Propaganda guy 2 [20.10.2012, 14:40]

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"Countries can control their economies through labor policy, pensions, the salaries and benefits of public workers and taxation (income, social and excise taxes as well as VAT)"

You know you get harsher and shriller the more people point out the constant "Estonia is best" crap.

Do you think there is a single country in Europe where people are proud to point out their "manufacturing base" consists of marginals such as furniture, boats and "metal objects".
These don't even figure even for a local town on the European scale of things.
Eg. The town of High Wycombe in the UK has made furniture for a century or more, Witney made textiles right back to the middle ages...but these are the kind of things which you want to PROVE makes little pygmy Estonia some sort of "manufacturing giant"...

In France they also make boats, have done for centuries in places like Nantes or Marseilles, do you think they are vaunting these as "their great manufacturing base"..

Your arguments are so patheticon the scale of it, you even try to claim you know something about economics.

Well being as you are so clever, you go and tell the Spanish or the Irish how to fix their broken economies.
They very CERTAINLY are not independent.
Not one little bit, but of course this you don't get.

Once you impose the straight-jacket of the Euro you can NO LONGER:-

1/ control through labor policy, because you are in direct competition with other countries and their labour rates denominated in the same currency.

2/ control through pensions, because as a result of high inflation, the pensions are no longer a safe investment. In fact because of the demographic crisis ALL pension schemes EU wide are bankrupt.

3/ control through the salaries of public workers...because EU wide the number of them is far too high, and they impose a dead weight on the economy. Your example of Estonia is perfect. They FROZE all these for 2 years, until such stage as those workers refuse to work for that money any more.

4/taxation income, social and excise taxes as well as VAT. In theory all very well, but in practice raising tax, just decreases demand, making it then impossible to collect that tax.
Witness the complete and total debacle of the new socialist government unde Hollande in France.
In a high tax world, people migrate themselves and their businesses to low tax places......eg. EBAY UK us based in Luxembourg and pays almost no corporation tax, Starbucks UK is based in Ireland...and so forth...

What gets me is you are economically illiterate, but claim to know everything.

This is normal, poor eastern Europeans given a little bit of money, think they are wealthy, given a little knowledge, start telling other people what to do.

If you were so clever since joining us in 2004, how come everyone is not following your expert advice in Estonia, and becoming wealthy again.

Because the only countries which can truly have some degree of independence in the EU are those that DIDN'T join the Euro.

Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, Great Britain, Poland.

All the ones that did, have had decade long slow growth and high unemployment, and cannot find a solution.

The only solution that is viable as Germany refuses to mutualise the Eurozone debts is for it to break up, so as those countries can fix their devaluation issues, and stop kicking the can down the road for their grandchildren to fix.

Sorry for you I am.
Estonia the great delusion of "independence" continues. Reply to the comment

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~Estonia delusions [22.10.2012, 10:18]

"Switzerland, Norway".

Actually I made a mistake here.
Those countries are not in the EU, they are in Europe, as is Iceland.

The fact is, if you follow the example of Iceland which now is back in growth, despite a default and collapse.

What did they do?

Raise taxes?
(no because there wasn't any income left)
Control salaries
(no because those workers were out of a job)

THEY DEVALUED, as their currency was almost worthless.

Exactly what is neccessary for Spain, Italy, Portugal & Greece, in fact the Euro is about 30% over-valued, which is why there is record unemployment in the Eurozone.

They have literally priced themselves out of work, just as Estonia is now doing by having the EU's highest inflation, without a single tool to be able to change it.

This was all predicted.
It was forecast, Euro entry would result in record inflation in Estonia.

That is EXACTLY what has happened despite the EU donating 10% of Estonia's GDP, creating yet another spiral of dependence, and a culture of laziness & arrogance.

~growth comes from intelligence [22.10.2012, 10:32]

So tell us oh wise one, what cars do the manufacture in Estonia. Not even Saabs.

~eestiMobwindow [22.10.2012, 15:00]

Your term "long rants" says it all.

Any presentation of objective facts you term a "rant" because it doesn't agree with your fundamental agenda, which is to make this medieval dystopia sound like Nirvana.

Finally to crown it all you have to compare beer prices in Tallinn centre.

I am all for STOPPING all EU funding to Estonia.

It's perfectly possible this will happen as Cameron is intent on putting a cap on EU budgets via his veto, and stopping this stupid one way gravy train to Eastern Europe, which as you have shown so well, is now perfectly capable of standing on its own feet without us.

There is even talk of preventing little minorities like yourself from coming to Britain, because unlike your country, Britain has independence in both currency and borders, and has no paid FAR TOO MUCH to countries like yours, quite apart from the extremely generous social allowances in the UK, which Estonia can't even come close to matching...

In fact as you bring this topic up.
There are many 100s of 1000s of Eastern Europeans in the UK now, who get allowances FAR in excess of what they would in say Poland, but often abuse this privelege using exactly the same mentality as yours...

It's a RIGHT, therefore we never have to pay it back, rather than CONTRIBUTING to Europe like we have in civilised western Europe for decades.

~ranting [22.10.2012, 15:58]

"Any presentation of objective facts you term a "rant" because it doesn't agree with your fundamental agenda,"

You just noticed this NOW about Propaganda Guy??? How do you think propaganda works?

Expect also that he will blather several times more about some small boat manufacturers because he decided to take your comment about "Estonia manufacturing nothing" *literally*

Although in the interests of some sort of fairness, you can't expect a country with the population of a medium-sized European city to have much of a manufacturing base.

~@ranting [23.10.2012, 00:40]

Yes point taken, but I don't expect the medium sized European city to suck in more per head in European money as well as food aid, than any other country in the whole of the EU.

That sort of thing just sux, because sure thing that's not what's called "independence".

In fact it is EXACTLY the kind of argument which is going on in Scotland just now.

How come Scotland which has almost no representation in the UK government gets more per head social spending than anywhere else in the UK...?
What happens if they vote to leave the UK?

OK, they have OIL and GAS, which have contributed enormously to the UK balance of payments and still do, but do you see European structural funds being used and abused in Scotland to the extent they are in Estonia, AND to the extent the country would collapse without them,-

then hear them every 5 mins saying YES but we don't have to pay any of it back, and we can control our distorted little experiment in market economy

EASY right?

Estonian propaganda SUX, it's all they can make here is hot air, which is just as well cos after 3 weeks of constant miserable rain & no summer, it snows at the end of the week.

~little rant [23.10.2012, 01:32]

Ah, esti=NO is off his meds and talking to him/herself again. So, can we now conclude that you are admitting you were wrong to say that Estonia manufactures nothing? Forget about aircraft carriers, TGVs, bicycle helmets, grey passport wives and Thomas the Tank Engine. Does Estonia maufacture ANYTHING? Yes or no.

~Propaganda guy 2 [23.10.2012, 02:59]

Name on aircraft carrier which has been manufactured in a failed state known as Estonia. Based on your dribble Estonia certainly manufactures a lot of booze.

~are you mad propaganda guy? [23.10.2012, 11:05]

"Name on aircraft carrier (...)"

Careful! Some companies in Estonia actually produce at least some parts for aircrafts:

http://panjiva.com/Estonian-Manufacturers-Of/aircraft

~knut albers [23.10.2012, 11:49]

Knut you think Americans buy their carrier parts from Eesti? You insignificant website means nothing. Americans buying aircraft carrier parts from Eesti, would be like Russia buying its air force from Sweden. It is just not reality. Big boys have no use for Eesti.

~holy man lanne [23.10.2012, 17:12]

Well, that looks great, even smaller cities in Russia manufacture bigger stuff like cars and guns
Eg, Izhevsk, Tula, never mind the larger cities in Ukraine like Kharkiv which make nuclear reactor, turbine bits & lots of pieces of aircraft too.

Fact is, Estonia is both unable and unwilling even to make a railway engine or a tram, and their roads are rebuilt with EU money.
Even when it comes to energy, despite the self sufficiency in Shale oil it has to be subsidised.
Perhaps we shouldn't mention their bankrupt airline?

OK I don't have to add TGV, it's actually a European thing, part made in Germany and France like the ICE, and that high speed thingy that tilts, that the swiss have got...made in Italy in fact.

It's one of those nice things landing in a place like Switzerland,it's not all cuckoo clocks and sweet chocolate (bit, like Tallinn really), but everything just WORKS and runs to time & they even have their own currency.

Now I suppose you are telling me next, that Tallinn is going to have the same standard of living as Geneva in the next 10 years??!!

Yea right!
I just saw a pig flying past the window!

~getting increasingly desperate [23.10.2012, 17:48]

You have been prevaricating and dodging the main question for days: Does Estonia manufacture ANYTHING? That is what the issue is, not what Russia, France, the US makes. That's just smoke and mirrors from you trying to cover up being called out over your utterly ridiculous claim. You just cant man up and admit you were wrong.

~Propaganda guy 2 [23.10.2012, 18:17]

Propaganda ministry clown. Estonia manufactures nothing worth value for the consumers living in major economies. Was that better? Name one Estonian product American consumers use. Let me guess: Skype. LMAO!

~holy dog sin [23.10.2012, 19:20]

LOL!!! Sucks to be wrong, doesn't it?

~Propaganda guy 2 [23.10.2012, 21:28]

Estonia makes excellent chocolate but no cuckoo clocks or wrist watches.

They actually make decent copies of high class pianos, but not the action which comes from Germany, and have no musicians to play them.

They didn't even make Skype as it was done in Sweden and some stuff subcontracted in Estonia.

Estonian railways are second hand Russian rolling stock from 40 years ago.

Estonian air is old a/c on the final 10 yr haul before it gets sold to Zambia or Congo.

Estonia makes some of the world's lousiest music, but even when it gets into Eurovision at all, they play it for years after, as though it had won an Oscar!

Can I think of a world class Estonian sporting personality, politician, TV programme, cinema film.

The only decent film they made in the last 30 years was about poverty in the coal belt of southern Ukraine.

~I LOVE ESTONIA [23.10.2012, 21:46]

What about the sex industry in Estonia. I heard it thrives there and produces revenue more per capita than it does in Minsk or Istanbul.

~tune in [23.10.2012, 23:56]

Estonia seems to be always on your mind. You can't stop writing about it day after day.

~@Whoever [24.10.2012, 01:11]

It is hard not to when half of million of you Baltic morons have already emigrated around Europe during the last twenty despite bragging to be one of the best states of the EU.

~yihaa aaron dinejad [24.10.2012, 17:03]

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The U.S. is not in the level of debt as popularly believed. The U.S. is debt to the American people. China owns about 16% of the American debt. U.S. Citizens own the brunt of U.S. debt by having invested in U.S. Bonds. Reply to the comment

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~Ken [23.10.2012, 13:57]

Are you seriously now comparing small little insignificant Estonia to a country of 300 million.

~estonian fookwits [23.10.2012, 19:22]

NO!

~Ken [24.10.2012, 14:29]

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